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Other games inspiration

 
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Phr00t



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 203

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:18 pm    Post subject: Other games inspiration Reply with quote

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/battlecruisermillennium/review.html

I want FreeUniverse to be a better 2D version of BattleCruiser Millenium (BCM). Smile The idea of having an open, dynamic universe to interact with is cool. However, as you can see in the review, BCM didn't do so good. It is because the learning curve is so high, and they added too many features and none were very complete. So, FreeUniverse is more arcade like (to reduce the learning curve) and with less features... however, I hope the feature list will continue to grow! So, mix BCM, MS FreeLancer and SubSpace/Continuum and you get FreeUniverse -- so feel free to "borrow" good ideas from these titles when/if you contribute Wink
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ChristianK



Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 159
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the post, I think it'll help everyone to see where we're headed more clearly.

It shows that focus is important. Let's focus on a few key features (preferably writing them down first ;) and improve them until they work well and are fun to play with. Then add the next feature, fit it in and improve it until it's perfect, and so on...

If we spread out too much, we'll end up with a bunch of half baked ideas that don't fit together and are hard to get into.

Nevertheless, I don't want to tell you to stop working on space storms or any other good idea that turns up, as that'd suck the motivation out of everyone pretty quickly. Maybe having an experimental branch where everyone can toy with new features and a development branch to work on features we've decided to focus on for the moment would be useful. (though maybe not this early in development)

My personal shortlist of most important features would go like this:

    * User interface (always boring, but very, very, very important!)
    * Controls (currently you have to move your right hand between mouse and arrow keys a lot and shooting doesn't really seem natural on 'f')
    * Combat (weapons, effects, ai, ...)
    * Motivation for combat (better items and what else? currently playing seems 'pointless' to me. maybe discussing and analyzing similar games would help us to come up with something)


What are your and clay's 'most important features'?

I'd like to agree on a few and then start to discuss them in depth, in order to come up with a plan on how to make them better.
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clayasaurus



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 857

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm probably going to be concentrating more on the technology aspects of freeuniverse, when I get the time, I want to implement (in order)...

1) Physics System
2) GUI System
3) Networking System

However, I will help out with fixing bugs in freeuniverse every so often.

~ Clay
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Phr00t



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 203

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I am currently working on:

* Jobs -- when you get a "protect" mission, that target should be under attack. And "follow" missions should actually have the ship you are following _go_ somewhere Smile

What I want worked on:

* More cool / worthwhile things -- black holes, bosses, implementing some of your ideas from the other thread?
* Game balancing -- some "play testing" will have to happen. Make sure the game isn't too hard or too easy... weapons, prices and enemies are balanced etc.
* In-game help system -- user can press F1 to get help, keys etc.
* Sound!
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ChristianK



Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 159
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your reply.

Jobs is definitely an area that still needs work. Personally, I've been permanently biased against kill x / collect y missions by mmogs and consequently haven't explored the jobs offered at stations much. Coming up with something better is really hard though, so I think it's good we have the jobs available.

I agree about the other points. The in-game help system seems closely connected with the ui and controls work I mentioned - they basically have the same goal.

Within the next days I'll create a thread for discussing the control scheme.

To implement the help system and improve the ui in a consistent manner I belive we should check the status of arc's gui part. Clay's busy with physics right now, but we could give him a hand and improve our own project at the same time by working on it.

Clay, I see the arc/gui folder already has some components. How functional are they? Would importing them into our arc tree work?
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Phr00t



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 203

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Jobs is definitely an area that still needs work. Personally, I've been permanently biased against kill x / collect y missions by mmogs and consequently haven't explored the jobs offered at stations much. Coming up with something better is really hard though, so I think it's good we have the jobs available.


Well, we need those jobs whether you like them or not... they are the "base" of every other job. It would be nice to have more interesting jobs however..

Quote:
I agree about the other points. The in-game help system seems closely connected with the ui and controls work I mentioned - they basically have the same goal.


My 3059 game had an in-game help system, and it worked very good. I'll let you know that my 3059 website is back up at http://3059.phr00t.com/, so you can check it out.

Quote:
To implement the help system and improve the ui in a consistent manner I belive we should check the status of arc's gui part. Clay's busy with physics right now, but we could give him a hand and improve our own project at the same time by working on it.


What exactly needs to be done with the GUI? I can see the save/load game screens being improved...
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ChristianK



Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 159
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, we need those jobs whether you like them or not... they are the "base" of every other job. It would be nice to have more interesting jobs however..


Of course! My comment was really superfluous, so let me change it to: "I'd really like to work on a complex job-creation algorithm that generates more interesting jobs when I get around to it."

Quote:
I'll let you know that my 3059 website is back up at http://3059.phr00t.com/, so you can check it out.


Excellent, I'll check it out once I'm home today.

Quote:
What exactly needs to be done with the GUI? I can see the save/load game screens being improved...


Well, I feel there are lots of little things that could be improved to make the game more accessible:
* The station interface sometimes doesn't recognize clicks. (ok, this is a bug and not an improvement...)
* When buying ships or equipment there's not enough information displayed to base a choice on. Apart from plain statistics, some flavor text or description would be nice.
* Equipment could be sorted / sortable.
* When you buy a new ship, all the old equipment should be automatically installed.
* When you buy new equipment, it should be installed automatically.
* The looks could be improved in general. But I'm no artist either.
* I've not yet understood what the left-side bar you can get in-flight is for?
* I feel the target information (faction, role) is vital, maybe it should get a permanent place on the hud?
* Sometimes a star gets under the minimap and I think it's a radar blip...
* In flight gui, so some actions can be performed with the mouse? (by right clicking: docking, commands to squadron members, ...) - unless we want to get rid of mouse usage in flight, but that's a controls thing.
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Phr00t



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 203

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
* The station interface sometimes doesn't recognize clicks. (ok, this is a bug and not an improvement...)


This is probably because a click is happening during the "wait" delay -- same problem we had with typing during the load/save screens.

Quote:
* When buying ships or equipment there's not enough information displayed to base a choice on. Apart from plain statistics, some flavor text or description would be nice.


Did you click the "Toggle Detail" button? This will show you more information to base your purchase on. Also, you can view your ship's detail by clicking that other button.

Quote:
* Equipment could be sorted / sortable.


OK... however, it already is sorted if you notice... Weapons are last, thats all I remember right now Smile

Quote:
* When you buy a new ship, all the old equipment should be automatically installed.
* When you buy new equipment, it should be installed automatically.


I don't like the idea of having equipment automatically installed. What happens if you want to buy some equipment, but not install it? There isn't much of a reason for this now, but I'd like there to be (mission to pick up a certain part from a specific place?). Anyway, I want to keep ship item management control on the "My Items" tab. I added the "Install All" button anyway which is good enough for people who just want their stuff installed.

[ edit ] Also, some ships won't be able to fit newly purchased items, or a different ship might not be able to fit all your previous equipment... And, you might pick up some extra items for a future ship purchase, but you don't want it installed on your current ship.. etc.

Quote:
* The looks could be improved in general. But I'm no artist either.


Yeah, not a priority tho...

Quote:
* I've not yet understood what the left-side bar you can get in-flight is for?


It lists you all of your current items. The ones in green are installed. The two bars are the health of the item, and the charge amount. When you use your weapons for example, you can see your weapons charging to be fired on this menu. Also, if your items are being damaged, you can see it there. Also, you can see how many torpedos and missles you have loaded. You can disable certain items by clicking their icon. Also, by holding the "J" key, you can jettison items out into space!

Quote:
* I feel the target information (faction, role) is vital, maybe it should get a permanent place on the hud?


I don't like filling the screen with HUD items... if you just want to select things for docking reasons / destroying rocks etc. you might not want that item display showing at all times. Remember, when you select targets, green targets signify friendly faction while yellow is bad faction. The target information doesn't change, so you can take a look at it by moving the mouse to the top of the screen when you are interested in this information...

Quote:
* Sometimes a star gets under the minimap and I think it's a radar blip...


Yeahp, I've noticed this too... but I don't want to draw a black background on this circle, because then it would cover up a good portion of the screen, e.g. ships and whatnot... maybe there is a way to just not draw stars under this?

Quote:
* In flight gui, so some actions can be performed with the mouse? (by right clicking: docking, commands to squadron members, ...) - unless we want to get rid of mouse usage in flight, but that's a controls thing.


Maybe, we will have to experiment with this... I personally find going through menus cumbersome, I like just pressing keys on the keyboard -- once you learn which ones to do, it is easier than navigating menus -- but I can see this as a possibly useful option... will have to experiment.
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ChristianK



Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 159
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Quote:
* The station interface sometimes doesn't recognize clicks. (ok, this is a bug and not an improvement...)


This is probably because a click is happening during the "wait" delay -- same problem we had with typing during the load/save screens.


Indeed. Got to take a look at it.

Quote:
Did you click the "Toggle Detail" button? This will show you more information to base your purchase on. Also, you can view your ship's detail by clicking that other button.


Yeah, I noticed the buttions - but with only every third click getting though, it was too cumbersome to actually click item - click details - unclick details - click next item - ... A bit more of that information could be displayed directly, in my opinion.

Quote:
OK... however, it already is sorted if you notice... Weapons are last, thats all I remember right now


I didn't notice! Maybe just add a little space between groups and maybe a heading...

Quote:
I don't like the idea of having equipment automatically installed. What happens if you want to buy some equipment, but not install it?


I expected that to be the reason. However, currently it is not allowed to buy a ship where the old equipment doesn't fit. Why is that so? I figured, if the game makes sure that the new ship is "big enough" for all my old equipment - why doesn't it equip it?

Also - I may be wrong, experimented with this a while ago - why is it not possible to pick up items from space if all your install-slots are already filled? I think I killed a carrier once and couldn't pick up most items since my slots were already full.

Quote:
I don't like filling the screen with HUD items...


Ok, maybe a toggle?

Quote:
Yeahp, I've noticed this too... but I don't want to draw a black background on this circle, because then it would cover up a good portion of the screen, e.g. ships and whatnot... maybe there is a way to just not draw stars under this?


Very possible. Alteratively, we could distinguish radar blips from stars. The blips could be pulsating, little crosses or something.

Quote:
Maybe, we will have to experiment with this... I personally find going through menus cumbersome, I like just pressing keys on the keyboard -- once you learn which ones to do, it is easier than navigating menus -- but I can see this as a possibly useful option... will have to experiment.


I mostly use the keyboard myself. A good menu with the keyboard shortcuts listed is the quickest way to learn the right keystrokes though. I think it'd also really help new players to control their ships.
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Phr00t



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 203

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yeah, I noticed the buttions - but with only every third click getting though, it was too cumbersome to actually click item - click details - unclick details - click next item - ... A bit more of that information could be displayed directly, in my opinion.


Hrm... I don't think there will be a way to display all the information on that screen, so a "Detail" button will have to exist, so cleaning up the GUI a bit on that screen might not make it so annoying to bring up a "detailed" page...

Quote:
I expected that to be the reason. However, currently it is not allowed to buy a ship where the old equipment doesn't fit. Why is that so? I figured, if the game makes sure that the new ship is "big enough" for all my old equipment - why doesn't it equip it?

Also - I may be wrong, experimented with this a while ago - why is it not possible to pick up items from space if all your install-slots are already filled? I think I killed a carrier once and couldn't pick up most items since my slots were already full.


Ahh, there is also a "weight" limit to items. So, when you pick up something, that means it doesn't pass your weight limit. Then, you may or may not have an install slot for it. So, when you can't pick up something in space, it means you have reached your weight limit. You can't buy a new ship if your items weigh too much for the new ship.

These weight limits etc. will need tweaking, I'm sure...

Quote:


Ok, maybe a toggle?


Yeah, keyboard toggle? I thought the "mouse at top of screen" toggle would be good enough, assuming the player just used the mouse to select an object...

Quote:
Very possible. Alteratively, we could distinguish radar blips from stars. The blips could be pulsating, little crosses or something.


Yeah, make them little circles or crosses sounds the best

Quote:
I mostly use the keyboard myself. A good menu with the keyboard shortcuts listed is the quickest way to learn the right keystrokes though. I think it'd also really help new players to control their ships.


Yeah, I know.. I'll admit I'm just not as motivated to work on GUI compared to features and balancing etc. Razz I do know how important it is, however..
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clayasaurus



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 857

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea, um... I just tried my hand at some physics and I think I'm going to lay off it until either Sequoh or I can figure out how to add circle and line shape and the quad tree collision method.

I will now concentrate on finishing that GUI system I started for Arc, which is pretty much an XML based RAD skin-able GUI system, although I'm thinking I will add an option to not use skins as well.

Just-in-time, the next release of D is supposed to feature some sort of signal/slot code as well which I may use for my GUI.

And, if it is still not implemented, I want to implement ship loading/saving! How many times have I played freeuniverse to have my credits saved, but not my ship!

~ Clay
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ChristianK



Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 159
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clayasaurus wrote:
And, if it is still not implemented, I want to implement ship loading/saving! How many times have I played freeuniverse to have my credits saved, but not my ship!


Hm, I just tried it (started new game, bought stuff, quit, loaded game): I still had the ship I bought and equipped, so it works. I didn't add it though.
Remember that your stuff is only saved on docking or undocking (don't remember which).
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Phr00t



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 203

PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your ship is saved when you undock from a planet (to save all you just purchased/installed etc.)

Credits being saved is probably coming from the fact that playerCredits is being written to ALL ships being saved... interesting -- should have a check in there that only saves playerCredits when you are saving the PlayerShip
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clayasaurus



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 857

PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't realize that the load screen worked Embarassed
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Phr00t



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 203

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To bring this discussion back on-topic, here are some more games to bring inspiration from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openlancer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity:_The_Quest_For_Earth

Openlancer, the open source improvement on FreeLancer. A good idea, but it doesn't look very active, and it is questionable whether it will ever be finished... Looks like they spend more time on their website than developing the game Confused

The Infinity game looks like a huge project, that won't have any release for 1 to 2 years (best case)... vaporware?

Both of these projects sound very interesting, and are falling into the same category FreeUniverse is in. However, with the help of you guys (and hopefully more) FreeUniverse is and will continue being actively developed! Also, FreeUniverse will always be free/open source, and run on simple hardware Smile Hopefully it will eventually have all the features and fun these big games will have (and more?)...
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